CVL-Caledon Literary Group Transcript for 2018-10-11

Samuel R. Delany — Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-precious Stones

16:51 Phrynne hi Word
16:51 Wordsmith Jarvinen Hi Phrynne
16:52 Valibrarian Gregg Hello all :) Just sending a few last minute reminders
16:52 CVL single cushion akea w anims 082217 Hi Wordsmith Jarvinen! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
16:54 [Second Life Star_Discussion_Notecard_Giver owned by Valibrarian Gregg gave you 'Discussion Guide for 11 October 2018 - Delany' ( Cookie (218,128,20) ).]
16:55 Wordsmith Jarvinen The discussion guide is now in the large vase
16:56 Valibrarian Gregg Welcome Savage
16:56 Wordsmith Jarvinen Hi, Savage
16:56 Valibrarian Gregg Hello all- We will start soon. Good to see you
16:56 Savage Taurus hi everyone
16:56 Wordsmith Jarvinen Discussion guide in the vase.
16:56 Savage Taurus I was only able to read about a third of the story so far
16:57 Valibrarian Gregg Should still be good for discussion Savage :)
16:57 Valibrarian Gregg People are welcome- even if they have not read a word of it!
16:59 Savage Taurus if it was posted in a group, I guess I missed it
16:59 Valibrarian Gregg welcome BrickThorn
16:59 Wordsmith Jarvinen I worked a bit more on the transcript archive, Val. http://www.caledonoxbridge.org/cvl_caledon/
16:59 Valibrarian Gregg ty Wordsmith
16:59 BrickThorn yello
16:59 Savage Taurus orange you gonna sit down?
17:00 BrickThorn hehe ;)
17:00 Savage Taurus hope you red the story
17:00 BrickThorn i'm a stander
17:00 Savage Taurus and it blue your mind
17:00 BrickThorn just found out about this in group chat so idk what the story even is?
17:00 Valibrarian Gregg http://classes.dma.ucla.edu/Fall10/157A/wp-content/uploads/timeDelany_01.pdf
17:00 Valibrarian Gregg The story can be found at that link
17:01 BrickThorn ty
17:01 Valibrarian Gregg STORY: "Time Considered as a Helis of Semi-precious Stones" by Samuel R. Delany
17:01 Valibrarian Gregg Feel free to relax around the fire
17:01 Savage Taurus gotta love the xeroxed pages
17:01 Valibrarian Gregg Set sun to night- if desired!
17:01 Valibrarian Gregg yes! I loved those pages Savage!
17:02 Valibrarian Gregg I thought- Reading the PDF “pictures of the pages of the story” and discussing them as avatars around a campfire….in itself is sort of a helix of reality.
17:02 Phrynne it's what was available.
17:02 Savage Taurus heh true
17:02 Wordsmith Jarvinen And it suffices
17:02 Valibrarian Gregg yes- and I might never had bumped into this story in another form ;)
17:03 Valibrarian Gregg *have
17:03 Wordsmith Jarvinen I also posted to the Oxbridge and Caledon groups.
17:03 Wordsmith Jarvinen Hi, Electra. Welcome
17:03 Valibrarian Gregg perfect Wordsmith
17:03 Elektra Panthar hi everyoe
17:03 Valibrarian Gregg Did everyone click on the vase near the fire to get the discussion notecard?
17:04 Savage Taurus hi Elektra
17:04 Wordsmith Jarvinen By no means exhaustive, but just things the caught my eye going through
17:04 Elektra Panthar pokes sl to make it rez faster
17:04 Valibrarian Gregg thought Elektra was poking the fire to rez more sparks!
17:04 Savage Taurus yea SL needs a good poking
17:05 Valibrarian Gregg 1st question- yes, Wordsmith, this story was a pleasure from the very first sentence. What a strong voice!
17:05 Wordsmith Jarvinen And basically the story of an up and coming racketeer in a culture in which Singers determine the current password, which is always a gemstone.
17:06 Wordsmith Jarvinen Thanks to Phrynne for finding it.
17:06 Phrynne I loved that the last gemstone was pyrite, which is also called fool's gold.
17:07 Valibrarian Gregg The need for the password (gemstone WORD) to keep changing reminded me of how we have to change our passwords for online accounts, etc - so often :)
17:07 Savage Taurus the narrator used a lot of slang and colloquialisms
17:07 Wordsmith Jarvinen And since the stone is chosen for each month, a ways of telling how much time has elapsed.
17:07 Valibrarian Gregg yes- And I do think the O'best beloved was a tip of the hat to Kipling
17:07 Savage Taurus ah true
17:08 Valibrarian Gregg hence the title! Time as a helix of gemstones
17:08 Wordsmith Jarvinen That was a phrase Kipling used a lot.
17:08 Valibrarian Gregg yes- especially in his children's verse
17:09 Valibrarian Gregg Did you find the character's voice appealing? I thought the style in this story was simply great.
17:09 Wordsmith Jarvinen Yes, when the same stone comes around again, it's not the same time and situation, so a helix, not a circle.
17:09 Savage Taurus O'best looks like a contraction of Octoberfest
17:09 Valibrarian Gregg a spiral--- like so much in life- revolving through seasons yet always new
17:09 Wordsmith Jarvinen I did, with some nuances along the way.
17:09 Valibrarian Gregg haha beloved Octoberfest
17:09 Wordsmith Jarvinen Even my hairdresser doesn't know for sure.
17:10 Phrynne old Lady Clairol ad
17:10 Valibrarian Gregg Style example---- “I ducked between the hub and the bub”
17:10 Valibrarian Gregg welcome Orange
17:10 Orange Planer Sorry I'm late.
17:10 Valibrarian Gregg good to see youi
17:10 BrickThorn savage? color puns?
17:10 Savage Taurus heh
17:10 Orange Planer Literally.
17:10 Wordsmith Jarvinen Hi Orange. Touch the large vase for my discussion guide notecard
17:11 Wordsmith Jarvinen And good to see you and we need to talk about classes. :)
17:11 Savage Taurus and yet, mostly cyan
17:12 Wordsmith Jarvinen I liked the repetitive use of "Things that aren't mine".
17:12 Savage Taurus I think Brick went cyanara
17:12 Wordsmith Jarvinen or crashed
17:12 Valibrarian Gregg yes- I had trouble thinking of our main character as a criminal! Bc his voice was so inviting
17:12 Orange Planer "Coopetition" - cooperative competition?
17:13 Wordsmith Jarvinen Yes. with a wikipedia book link for the book
17:13 Savage Taurus I had trouble caring about him because he was a criminal
17:14 Valibrarian Gregg I can get that Savage- but the language kept drawing me in...
17:14 Valibrarian Gregg Example- this sentence: Outside, the city tried on its thousand sequins, then through them away behind the trees of Ft. Tyron.
17:14 Savage Taurus yea the narration was engaging
17:14 Wordsmith Jarvinen And yes, what that means can depend on where the culture has gone.
17:14 Valibrarian Gregg * threw them away (sorry)
17:14 Phrynne It was published in 1968, if that helps any
17:15 Valibrarian Gregg and won several awards including the Hugo
17:15 Phrynne Hugo and Nebula
17:15 Phrynne Delany's done that more than once, which is rare.
17:15 Wordsmith Jarvinen I did like thing like his response to an investigation of organized crime --- fortunately I'm disorganized.
17:16 Valibrarian Gregg Not even my hairdresser knows for sure.--- This sort of illustrated that he kept changing his look all the time
17:16 Valibrarian Gregg Harold Clancy Everet changes his identity but keeps his initials. This reminded me of people in SL who change avatars.
17:16 Wordsmith Jarvinen red hair, brown hair, black hair, .....
17:16 Valibrarian Gregg bald!
17:17 Savage Taurus funny that he changed his name to Harmony and the cop teased him about it
17:17 Valibrarian Gregg yes- lots of "playing on words"- I am sure I missed some of the hidden or humorous meanings
17:17 Wordsmith Jarvinen Could have gone with the look of how hes was dressed, also.
17:18 Valibrarian Gregg From discussion card: Interesting comment on clothes and border between good and bad taste and the fad of the moment.
"Oh so dapper and of his time, attired in the bad taste that is oh so tasteful."
"She wore a sheath of veiling closed at the neck and wrists with huge brass pins (oh so tastefully on the border of taste)".
17:18 Savage Taurus yea he kept saying things were on the edge of tasteful, but not really describing in detail
17:18 Valibrarian Gregg vividly illustrates "fad" and fashion
17:19 Wordsmith Jarvinen And then Hawk's very dirty denim jacket, ripe pants, and bare feet.
17:20 Valibrarian Gregg Color is prevalent in the story- with the gems and clothing. (yes I remember that phrase about the dirty denim)
17:20 Savage Taurus the bare feet threw me off...who could survive on the street with bare feet?
17:20 Phrynne Hawk doesn't have to look powerful or proper; he has the power of the Song
17:20 Orange Planer I find that phraseology eerily similar to "fog slips in on kittens' feet."
17:20 Valibrarian Gregg welcome Hannah
17:21 Wordsmith Jarvinen Hi Hanna.
17:21 Orange Planer It sets an image without being exact.
17:21 Valibrarian Gregg Touch the vase by the campfire for a notecard- I dropped you a link to the story
17:21 Wordsmith Jarvinen Touch the vase for the discussion notecard.
17:21 Orange Planer I didn't know your name was "Echo."
17:21 Valibrarian Gregg I found Hawk's "self mutilation" a bit disturbing-- anyone else?
17:21 Wordsmith Jarvinen Yes
17:22 Phrynne I wish I'd had more of a sense of why he was doing it.
17:22 Valibrarian Gregg the "pain" of being an artist?
17:22 Orange Planer notes that he hasn't read the story, so is cooperating passively.
17:22 Wordsmith Jarvinen An artistic sense gone askew.
17:22 Valibrarian Gregg no problem Orange :)
17:22 Valibrarian Gregg The Singers (poetic lyricists who tell stories in song) are highly respected and it is illegal to reproduce the songs. (Respect for intellectual property- YES!) I liked that part.
17:22 Savage Taurus :)
17:23 Valibrarian Gregg and think-- back in 1968 nobody knew that people could share their music digitally on Spotify or Youtube :)
17:23 Wordsmith Jarvinen Which also means whatever is sung is a onetime event.
17:23 Valibrarian Gregg yes- the songs were about current events and emotions
17:23 Valibrarian Gregg Singing journalist poets!
17:23 Phrynne Bards!
17:24 Wordsmith Jarvinen Yes, Bards.
17:24 Valibrarian Gregg yes Phynne- like going both to the future and back in time
17:24 Valibrarian Gregg *Phrynne
17:24 Wordsmith Jarvinen Who could demand attention and move people.
17:24 Valibrarian Gregg exactly
17:25 Wordsmith Jarvinen Interesting also the multiple meanings of the current "Word".
17:25 Valibrarian Gregg WORD as in password and...?
17:26 Savage Taurus I need to be going. Have a lovely evening, folks :)
17:26 Valibrarian Gregg good to see you Savage
17:26 Valibrarian Gregg take care
17:26 Wordsmith Jarvinen As in password -- the name of a gemstone.
17:26 Savage Taurus take care
17:26 Wordsmith Jarvinen tc Savage. See you next time.
17:26 Valibrarian Gregg the stone was the WORD yeah
17:27 Wordsmith Jarvinen And use correctly, the meaning was supposed to be unambiguous.
17:27 Valibrarian Gregg Hard to believe this was written 50 years ago!
17:28 Wordsmith Jarvinen What can very is context, tonality, tempo, and non-verbal communication.
17:28 Valibrarian Gregg From notecard: "Final point of syntax: If the Word is used properly, you should never have to think twice about what it means in a given situation. Fine point of usage: Never trust anyone who uses it improperly."
17:28 Phrynne And emotion -- the emotion with which the Word is conveyed might mean a lot
17:28 Valibrarian Gregg so....you gotta OWN the Word :)
17:28 Wordsmith Jarvinen Any of the rest of you, feel free to jump in. Questions or comments.
17:29 Valibrarian Gregg Do you think this story withstands the test of time? Still relevant and interesting?
17:29 Phrynne yes
17:30 Phrynne It's written in a very visual style; I had no trouble imagining the scenes even without all the details.
17:30 Wordsmith Jarvinen I do. Delany is unspecific about technology. We know that there's interplanetary travel, but unlike Heinlein, no details of powering it or the specific technology.
17:30 Valibrarian Gregg In the "Information Age"- I find I really like this sentence:
'“Information is only meaningful when shared,” said a voice that was hers from the place of her face.'
17:31 Phrynne Cybernetics, perhaps? An android?
17:31 Wordsmith Jarvinen Yes, that was very perceptive.
17:32 Valibrarian Gregg the science is non-specific but the language is so real and unique
17:33 Valibrarian Gregg Are you saying maybe some of the characters are cyborgs or AI?
17:33 Valibrarian Gregg once again- vague but inferred
17:33 Valibrarian Gregg What did you think of this?.....
17:33 Valibrarian Gregg To think “holographically” is an interesting concept.
17:33 Phrynne well, the reference to 'the place of her face' made me think that it wasn't the person herself that he saw
17:34 Valibrarian Gregg right! such a cool phrase
17:34 Wordsmith Jarvinen When he leads you into something is novel. He introduces Hawk, by adding to the description of Arty THE Hawk, and then concludes, "not the same".
17:34 Valibrarian Gregg I found that phrasing (which he did quite often) to be innovative
17:34 Wordsmith Jarvinen She wore an adjustable veil.
17:35 Phrynne ahhh
17:35 Wordsmith Jarvinen So when she turned her veil back on, he no longer saw her face, but the voice came from where her face was visible just moments before.
17:36 Valibrarian Gregg wow- I love a non-condescending author who lets us think!
17:36 Wordsmith Jarvinen "The place of her face"
17:36 Valibrarian Gregg To think “holographically” is an interesting concept.
17:38 Valibrarian Gregg so--- I am beginning to feel like the characters my be cyborgs...and the setting? there's a sci-fi feeling
17:38 Valibrarian Gregg The penthouse had a “mixed reality” feel when he described both real and artificial elements (plants, water). “A breeze (artificial or real I couldn’t tell you) came by and the trees gave us a final shush”.
17:38 Wordsmith Jarvinen It sounds like something that provides a gestalt of the person; what Heinlein might call grokking the person.
17:40 Valibrarian Gregg grokking and thinking holographically - could be similar
17:40 Wordsmith Jarvinen Both architecture and use of what's natural but with augmentation.
17:40 Wordsmith Jarvinen Maud at one point says "we aren't interested in the details"
17:40 Valibrarian Gregg yep- physical world, augmented world....maybe even virtual worlds?
17:41 Valibrarian Gregg Not interested in the details does not sound like a cop!
17:41 Wordsmith Jarvinen Wouldn't be that much of a stretch, although the drinks aren't as effective.
17:41 Orange Planer Grokking is more like understanding by gestalt.
17:41 Orange Planer I think.
17:42 Valibrarian Gregg We grok that, Orange :) (I think)!
17:42 Orange Planer I have 31 pages before I finish the story.
17:43 Wordsmith Jarvinen Maud's group seems more interested in activities that affect the social balance than in crime per se.
17:43 Valibrarian Gregg As much as I enjoyed Delany's writing style--- I wished I would have liked the characters!
17:43 Valibrarian Gregg the story seems more about culture than character plot
17:43 Wordsmith Jarvinen Normal crimes and details are under Regular Services.
17:44 Valibrarian Gregg Did the Special Services work on more than one planet? seemed like it
17:45 Wordsmith Jarvinen Independent jurisdictions.
17:45 Orange Planer Grok:
17:45 Orange Planer Grok means "to understand," of course, but Dr. Mahmoud, who might be termed the leading Terran expert on Martians, explains that it also means, "to drink" and "a hundred other English words, words which we think of as antithetical concepts. 'Grok' means all of these. It means 'fear,' it means 'love,' it means 'hate'—proper hate, for by the Martian 'map' you cannot hate anything unless you grok it, understand it so thoroughly that you merge with it and it merges with you—then you can hate it. By hating yourself. But this implies that you love it, too, and cherish it and would not have it otherwise. Then you can hate—and (I think) Martian hate is an emotion so black that the nearest human equivalent could only be called mild distaste.[4]
"'Grok' means 'identically equal.' The human cliché 'This hurts me worse than it does you' has a distinctly Martian flavor. The Martian seems to know instinctively what we learned painfully from modern physics, that observer acts with observed through the process of ob
17:45 Phrynne Yes, I think so -- there's a bit about making sure the income from the ice cream shop with the floor show is legitimate
17:45 Orange Planer process of observation. 'Grok' means to understand so thoroughly that the observer becomes a part of the observed—to merge, blend, intermarry, lose identity in group experience. It means almost everything that we mean by religion, philosophy, and science and it means as little to us as color does to a blind man."[4][5]
"The Martian Race had encountered the people of the fifth planet, grokked them completely, and had taken action; asteroid ruins were all that remained, save that the Martians continued to praise and cherish the people they had destroyed."[4]
"All that groks is God."
17:46 Valibrarian Gregg super deep understanding=GROK ty Orange
17:46 Orange Planer This is from Heinlein's Stranger In A Strange Land, where his version of the word is defined.
17:47 Orange Planer The O.E.D. defines it much more simply: While the Oxford English Dictionary summarizes the meaning of grok as "to understand intuitively or by empathy, to establish rapport with" and "to empathize or communicate sympathetically (with); also, to experience enjoyment",
17:47 Valibrarian Gregg Our CVL book discussion group read that book!
17:47 Orange Planer eats more cake
17:48 Valibrarian Gregg I have really developed an appreciation for Science Fiction due to discussions in a virtual world......bc so many sci-fi concepts actually come into being (or something similar)
17:48 Valibrarian Gregg as time moves on
17:48 Elektra Panthar ㋡
17:48 Wordsmith Jarvinen The longer definition really does have a holographic sense to it.
17:50 Valibrarian Gregg Define hologram: a three-dimensional image formed by the interference of light beams from a laser or other coherent light source.
17:50 Wordsmith Jarvinen And, toward the end, Maud says something to the effect of "we can help each other", and Arty the Hawk says that if the protagonist takes care of his security and grows big enough, a time will come when we can be friends again.
17:51 Elektra Panthar bed is calling... Thank you for this, take care everyone :)
17:51 Valibrarian Gregg glad you could join us Elektra!
17:51 Valibrarian Gregg goodnight!
17:51 Wordsmith Jarvinen Thanks for coming, Elektra. Nice to see you again.
17:51 Elektra Panthar You too :)
17:52 Wordsmith Jarvinen So that sense of "let's not be personal enemies" and we has separate interests but we also have some in common.
17:53 Valibrarian Gregg thinking of holographics and "merging' reminds me of Virtual Reality- the story touches on simulation yet the importance of being authentically yourself
17:54 Wordsmith Jarvinen A balancing act.
17:54 Valibrarian Gregg balancing on a spiral helix!
17:54 Orange Planer Not letting information dictate what you do all the time; instead, letting information inform your opinions so you act authentically.
17:54 Phrynne The use of mathematics to find future wrongdoing reminds me of some Philip K. Dick stories -- but this is much kinder.
17:55 Wordsmith Jarvinen I remember reading an article after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Yes, there was corruption, but if you knew who to bribe, you could get stuff done and get things you needed. Now, the corruption is much less, but we suffer more.
17:55 Orange Planer What was the science fiction story where psychology becomes a hard science based on probability of large groups, and suddenly the future can be predicted?
17:56 Phrynne nods
17:56 Phrynne I can't remember the title
17:56 Wordsmith Jarvinen Asimov's foundation
17:56 Wordsmith Jarvinen Foundation and Empire, 2nd Foundation.
17:56 Valibrarian Gregg For our book discussion this month- we are reading a new Sci-Fi that is written in crazy text! hacked emails, IMs, text messages, top secret documents...etc- I find it creative but hard to follow at times. I could follow Delaney's story and enjoyed his style.
17:57 Valibrarian Gregg Illuminae is a young adult "space opera" http://amiekaufman.com/books/the-illuminae-files/illuminae/
17:57 Wordsmith Jarvinen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hari_Seldon
17:58 Wordsmith Jarvinen I think, I enjoyed Delany's different way of phrasing and using words.
17:58 Valibrarian Gregg I'd like to read more Asimov! Would you say his work is classic Sci-Fi :)
17:58 Valibrarian Gregg me too Wordsmith!
17:58 Wordsmith Jarvinen Definitely.
17:59 Valibrarian Gregg so- any thoughts yet for next month?
17:59 Valibrarian Gregg I really really like these short sci fi stories
17:59 Orange Planer That's it, Wordsmith. Thank you.
17:59 Wordsmith Jarvinen Not yet, but I'll get back shortly.
18:00 Wordsmith Jarvinen Confer with Phrynne, see what we can find.
18:00 Valibrarian Gregg Next month- I am presenting at a conference and will be out of town on the 2nd THURS! any chance we could change it to the 3rd THurs for NOV?
18:00 Valibrarian Gregg That would be Thurs Nov 15th?
18:00 Orange Planer Asimov - classic? Hm.
18:00 Valibrarian Gregg instead of the 8th?
18:00 Wordsmith Jarvinen It should work for me.
18:00 Valibrarian Gregg I say "classic" but maybe "popular" is more accurate? I have not read enough of him to say
18:01 Valibrarian Gregg Great! When you get the story- let me know and I will announce the date change!
18:01 Phrynne I don't think of Asimov as classic, but then I don't like him much. I read Foundation and Foundation and Empire, and kept waiting for actual character development.
18:01 Valibrarian Gregg I am happy to get a chance to collaborate with Caledon. ty
18:01 Wordsmith Jarvinen Sounds good. And I'll do the transcript as with the earlier ones.
18:01 Valibrarian Gregg oh! the only thing I really know of Asimov is his 5 Laws of Robotics
18:02 Orange Planer I recall reading an enormous amount of Asimov, and I think he's more into idea development.
18:02 Valibrarian Gregg which are pretty interesting and relevant to the future of civilization LOL
18:02 Phrynne He has books with fascinating ideas and cardboard characters.
18:02 Wordsmith Jarvinen I did get a list of possible meeting sites in Caledon from JJ, still have to look the over.
18:02 Phrynne If he wrote short stories, I haven't read them.
18:02 Wordsmith Jarvinen Flip there an maybe pick up some more people from time to time.
18:03 Valibrarian Gregg ok Wordsmith- we could alternate meetings here and in Caledon?
18:03 Orange Planer He did. There isn't a short story scifi magazine called Asimov for no reason.
18:03 Valibrarian Gregg Just let me know the location for the notecard....maybe even for next month
18:03 Wordsmith Jarvinen Will do, Val.
18:03 Valibrarian Gregg I hope to see you all again next month! on Nov 15th 5pm
18:04 Orange Planer I'm gonna go finish this story.
18:04 Valibrarian Gregg enjoy!
18:04 Orange Planer I haven't read Delaney in a long long time.
18:04 Orange Planer And I SURE as HELL need something to read from other than Cisco Press.
18:04 Wordsmith Jarvinen tc Orange. Ready to teach any classes yet?
18:05 Orange Planer I'm going to need help preparing all the materials.
18:05 Valibrarian Gregg I need to head out - see you all again!
18:05 Orange Planer My text is fine. But you asked me for many pictures and a number of other requirements, and I just don't have the energy to do all of it.
18:05 Orange Planer waves to Val.
18:05 Valibrarian Gregg goodnight all
18:05 Orange Planer Thanks fo rth efriendship request.
18:05 Valibrarian Gregg :)
18:06 Valibrarian Gregg keep in touch