CVL-Caledon Literary Group Transcript for 2018-09-20

Connie Willis — Fire Watch

16:45 Heart Campfire Cushion - Single - ZigZag Hi Wordsmith Jarvinen! Touch me to change pose. Say /1a to Adjust.
16:46 Wordsmith Jarvinen Hi Stranger. :)
16:47 Phrynne Hi. I hear you like Connie Willis
16:48 Wordsmith Jarvinen Pretty good stuff.
16:49 Phrynne Have you read her book about Kivren's journey into the time of the plague? I stayed up all night reading it, then started it over again when I finished.
16:49 Wordsmith Jarvinen I haven't, but I listed it at the bottom of those notes.
16:49 Phrynne "Char" is the British version of cleaning person, usually lady.
16:50 Phrynne it's an everyday term.
16:51 Wordsmith Jarvinen Now, if Valibrarian remembers that she offset this a week.
16:51 Phrynne I liked the texture of the story, the way it dealt with ordinary, everyday life in a horribly difficult time.
16:52 Wordsmith Jarvinen Yes
16:52 Phrynne One of my uncles met his wife during the Blitz, in one of the Underground shelters.
16:52 Phrynne I heard a bit about what it was like; the story doesn't disagree.
16:54 Wordsmith Jarvinen Val's on.
16:55 Phrynne hello, Valibrarian
16:55 Wordsmith Jarvinen Hi Val
16:56 Valibrarian Gregg hello! Just sending out a couple reminders
16:57 Wordsmith Jarvinen Nods.
16:59 Wordsmith Jarvinen Gave you a discussion prompt notecard earlier today. If you can replace the one in the notecard giver with the new one ..... :)
17:00 Valibrarian Gregg ok! Will you hand it out to others? as they arrive?
17:00 Wordsmith Jarvinen Hello, Danica
17:00 Wordsmith Jarvinen If it's in the notecard giver, they can just click on it.
17:00 Danica (missnikaru) Hello!
17:01 Phrynne hi Danica
17:01 Wordsmith Jarvinen The yellowish vase-like thing
17:01 Savage Taurus hi everyone
17:02 Savage Taurus got it
17:02 Danica (missnikaru) It works!
17:03 Valibrarian Gregg Great to see you all
17:03 Wordsmith Jarvinen Welcome,
17:03 Savage Taurus good to see you too
17:03 Valibrarian Gregg Thanks, Wordsmith, for facilitating our discussion
17:03 Wordsmith Jarvinen A bit different story this month.
17:03 Wordsmith Jarvinen Always a pleasure, Val.
17:03 Valibrarian Gregg yes! super interesting take on time travel
17:04 Wordsmith Jarvinen So we start out in Oxford in 2050, with a history department that uses time travel
17:04 Savage Taurus I found the sci-fi aspect to not be necessary in this story. The anxiety of the situation was interesting enough on its own
17:05 Wordsmith Jarvinen And our protagonist Bartholomew (henceforth Bart) in in the process of a fit.
17:06 Wordsmith Jarvinen Could have used someone coming in from Wales, but some of the uncertainty would have been removed.
17:06 Valibrarian Gregg Interesting point, Savage- yet the idea of an historical practicum in an era from the past required time travel in the story- something we could provide students here in virtual worlds!
17:06 Savage Taurus the fact that he thought Langby was a spy the whole time made it even more riveting
17:06 Savage Taurus yes the concept of a time travel practicum is neat
17:07 Wordsmith Jarvinen I've got that in the notes a bit down -- the mutuality of each thinking the other was a Nazi agent.
17:07 Savage Taurus this is not a story I would have normally read on my own, as I am not that into WWII history, or spy stories
17:07 Valibrarian Gregg Bartholomew's initial problem was no time for preparation. Is this an indication that the history department is looking for adaptability and resourcefulness?
17:07 Wordsmith Jarvinen The history dept. appears to have a policy of upsetting students' plans.
17:08 Savage Taurus but I really enjoyed the feeling of anxiety and exhaustion that the story portrayed
17:08 Phrynne Or perhaps upsetting their preconceived notions of the past.
17:08 Valibrarian Gregg I think throwing the student into the situation perhaps was part of the learning process?
17:08 Wordsmith Jarvinen That seems to be true.
17:09 Savage Taurus yes the history department seemed intent on sending him in unprepared
17:09 Valibrarian Gregg And using his human brain like a computer's "storage and retrieval" (terms we use in library science)
17:09 Valibrarian Gregg This sentence intrigued me, "The whole complex sort-and-file process of retrieval is apparently centered in the short-term, and without it, and without the help of the drugs that put it there or artificial substitutes, information can be impossible to retrieve."
17:09 Savage Taurus yea all that about the memory storage, I could have done without. I didn't feel it added to the story at all
17:11 Phrynne Memory was the only technology he could take with him, going back.
17:11 Wordsmith Jarvinen Without an index with what's in there, so a fair amount of story went to trying to get stuff out.
17:12 Valibrarian Gregg yes- and I could not figure out the future date of the story! I just placed it sometime in the future.....did I miss the time period?
17:12 Wordsmith Jarvinen I recall 2050.
17:12 Valibrarian Gregg Welcome Panny! Good to see you- hope you didn't have trouble finding us since we alternate monthly location :)
17:13 Savage Taurus hi Panny
17:13 Valibrarian Gregg touch the gold vase in front of Wordsmith for a notecard
17:13 Panny (panny.bakerly) Hi there
17:13 Wordsmith Jarvinen Hi Panny
17:13 Valibrarian Gregg can't wait to see you answers to this one
Why is seeing a cat significant?
17:13 Panny (panny.bakerly) Hope everyone is well.
17:14 Wordsmith Jarvinen According to the story cats had been wiped out by a plague.
17:14 Valibrarian Gregg Good point Phrynne- "Memory was the only technology he could take with him, going back."
17:14 Savage Taurus I could identify with the sense of anxiety and not being able to sleep, because I've been dealing with a problem neighbor, so many times I've gone to check out strange sounds happening outside
17:14 Wordsmith Jarvinen I always have a bit of trouble with overly broad wipe-outs, just because of genetic diversity.
17:14 Savage Taurus oh yea the part about the cat was sad
17:15 Valibrarian Gregg yes- no more cats!!! and he is fascinated to see one
17:16 Savage Taurus it was ironic that Enola's brother went to Bath to be safe, but died there
17:16 Valibrarian Gregg You mean, Wordsmith. that it would be difficult for ALL cats to disappear?
17:16 Wordsmith Jarvinen What surprised me a bit for a graduate student is that he seemed to lack general knowledge of what a practicum is for or what historians do when sent back.
17:17 Wordsmith Jarvinen Yes, Val. For example the 1918 Spanish Flu killed millions but didn't wipe out humanity.
17:17 Valibrarian Gregg True- another example of not being prepared- as if his instructors gave little guidance.
17:17 Savage Taurus I didn't know the word practicum until this story. My entire MFA was a practicum
17:17 Valibrarian Gregg Some fields may not use the term- education does
17:18 Savage Taurus we had no tests. Only projects. Our thesis was just a larger project
17:18 Phrynne I suspect that Bart's education thus far didn't talk much about what was included or expected in the practicum. And then it happened before he thought he was prepared enough.
17:19 Wordsmith Jarvinen I'm forgetting what the Brits use as a term for thesis defense.
17:19 Savage Taurus ah
17:19 Savage Taurus so its a British term
17:19 Valibrarian Gregg He did have a bit of vicarious experience because of his roommate's practicum. Quote-- "The young woman reminded me of Kivrin, though Kivrin is a good deal taller and would never frizz her hair like that. She looked as if she had been crying. Kivrin looked like that since she got back from her practicum. The Middle Ages were too much for her. "
17:19 Valibrarian Gregg So- I think he knew that time travel takes a lot out of you!
17:20 Phrynne I think this was written before Doomsday Book, so there was no way for the reader to know what Kivrin went through.
17:20 Savage Taurus yea apparently they don't get colds in the future either. Another thing that made me think they were robots
17:20 Wordsmith Jarvinen When the danger level has to be at least a 6.
17:20 Valibrarian Gregg Is this what you mean, Wordsmith-- The thesis defense in the UK is called viva voce (“with the living voice”).
17:21 Wordsmith Jarvinen Yes, Val. Often people just use Viva.
17:21 Valibrarian Gregg ooh good point Savage- they could be robots or at least cyborgs.
17:21 Savage Taurus oh possibly
17:21 Savage Taurus that would explain the memory storage stuff
17:22 Valibrarian Gregg Some people claim we are all cyborgs now (dependent on our technology for life).
17:22 Savage Taurus lots of cybernetic implants
17:22 Panny (panny.bakerly) chuckles
17:22 Wordsmith Jarvinen That's for finding that.
17:22 Savage Taurus or maybe bodies filled with nanotech
17:22 Phrynne A lot of immunization, at least.
17:22 Wordsmith Jarvinen I thought that the motivation for the mutual suspicion was a bit sketchy.
17:23 Valibrarian Gregg and this was written back in the 1980s? Before the Internet overtook our lives.
17:23 Savage Taurus I loved that they each suspected one another
17:23 Savage Taurus found it to be funny
17:23 Wordsmith Jarvinen He (Bart) seemed to suspect Langby because Langby waited to see if Bart unfroze and took care of the incendiary.
17:23 Valibrarian Gregg I just chalked it up to war times.--- the suspicion
17:24 Savage Taurus I can identify with that as well, because I suspect all sorts of things of the nurse's aids taking care of my mom that are very hard to prove or catch
17:24 Wordsmith Jarvinen And Langby because only a dirty Nazi spy wouldn't know that cats don't like water.
17:24 Savage Taurus sometimes you just get a feeling about someone and find out later you were right. We can read people really well that way
17:25 Savage Taurus people act a certain way when they are lying
17:25 Wordsmith Jarvinen So picking up vicarious messages.
17:25 Valibrarian Gregg What is an "artificial"? I may have missed the explanation. Quote: "If I could just get hold of an artificial, I think I could induce a trance, in spite of my poor condition."
17:26 Valibrarian Gregg I thought of an AI bot :)
17:26 Savage Taurus I've come to realize that its sort of the same as drawing/painting. You compare your drawing to the real image and see the differences. When you know what honesty looks like and you sense something different, it stands out
17:26 Wordsmith Jarvinen chemical like endorphins, alchohol, ....
17:26 Valibrarian Gregg cool analogy, Savage
17:27 Valibrarian Gregg oh- as in an artificial "altered state"?
17:28 Wordsmith Jarvinen Yes, which story wise makes it easier to access long-term memory created on endorphins.
17:28 Wordsmith Jarvinen And there is state-dependent memory.
17:28 Valibrarian Gregg oh-- yes I see it here--- Quote: " The whole complex sort-and-file process of retrieval is apparently centered in the short-term, and without it, and without the help of the drugs that put it there or artificial substitutes, information can be impossible to retrieve. "
17:28 Savage Taurus I liked learning about things like stirrup pumps
17:29 Savage Taurus and the details of the cathedral
17:29 Wordsmith Jarvinen Yes actual devices and terminology of the times.
17:29 Valibrarian Gregg Indeed- she is a good writer!
17:29 Savage Taurus which is still standing, by the way
17:29 Valibrarian Gregg Shows her research of the time period.
17:29 Savage Taurus and is beautiful
17:29 Phrynne The story had a good texture -- it had a good sense of the details of the time period.
17:30 Phrynne how and what you'd eat, where you'd sleep, that you'd need coupons to get clothing
17:30 Savage Taurus yes all those details were nice
17:30 Wordsmith Jarvinen The horrendous kippers and tea.
17:30 Savage Taurus heh
17:31 Wordsmith Jarvinen Cooked on the gas ring.
17:31 Phrynne high protein diet
17:31 Savage Taurus I wasn't sure if kippers meant fish, or just food in general
17:31 Phrynne Kippers are smoked herring, or similar, usually from a tin
17:31 Wordsmith Jarvinen Fish, which he did seem to have learned that cats like.
17:32 Wordsmith Jarvinen Sold in the U.S. as Kippered Snacks.
17:32 Valibrarian Gregg and Connie Willis is an American- good details about Europe
17:32 Savage Taurus https://afternoontea.co.uk/media/3686540/st-pauls-the-crypt-main.jpg
17:33 Valibrarian Gregg She has won numerous Sci-Fi awards.
17:33 Wordsmith Jarvinen Willis also seems good at preparing for later. Bart placing sand in the hole in the roof under the planks.
17:33 Savage Taurus and the fact that they would attack at low tide, so that there would be no water
17:34 Wordsmith Jarvinen Enola saying "I worry about you. That I'll come by someday and you won't be here"
17:34 Valibrarian Gregg oh my! I was picturing more of a Dracula crypt!
17:34 Valibrarian Gregg ty for sharing the pic!
17:35 Savage Taurus yes, at first I was annoyed that she added a love interest, but later I found it did help the story
17:35 Wordsmith Jarvinen And anyone with a point they caught that I didn't, please jump in.
17:35 Wordsmith Jarvinen At least a connection interest.
17:35 Valibrarian Gregg The theme of things being lost- destroyed- was strong.
17:35 Savage Taurus I found I cared about the cathedral, and langby, and enola, and the cat, and even tom
17:36 Savage Taurus yes a strong sense of loss
17:36 Wordsmith Jarvinen Both times I went through it that last part brought tears.
17:36 Phrynne I loved that he passed, with honors -- because he insisted that history was about people, not numbers.
17:38 Wordsmith Jarvinen Although making people sit for a statistic exam fresh back and passing the ones who explode and insist otherwise seems a strange educational technique.
17:38 Savage Taurus yes, the ending with the professor was more climactic than I thought it would be and very satisfying
17:38 Valibrarian Gregg Great concept- people ARE more important than data too- and we live in a world that honors data.
17:38 Valibrarian Gregg yes- great ending@
17:39 Phrynne If he had come back from all of that and only remembered the numbers, he would have deserved to fail.
17:39 Valibrarian Gregg Quote: "Nothing is saved forever, Dean Matthews, and I knew that when I walked in the west doors that first day, blinking in the gloom, but it is pretty bad nevertheless." (He was standing in the rubble)
17:39 Savage Taurus too many history classes are about names and dates that mean nothing to the students
17:39 Wordsmith Jarvinen And there we also get the repeat of Enola's worry. She did come by and he was gone.
17:39 Savage Taurus hi Beth
17:39 Beth Ghostraven hi Savage!
17:39 Valibrarian Gregg welcome Beth
17:39 Beth Ghostraven thanks Val!
17:39 Phrynne hi Beth
17:39 Savage Taurus cute hedgehog
17:39 Wordsmith Jarvinen Hi Beth. Good to see you again.
17:40 Beth Ghostraven Hello, Phrynne and Word! Great to see you!
17:40 Savage Taurus medieval hedgehog princess
17:40 Beth Ghostraven thanks Savage :o)
17:40 Beth Ghostraven my alter ego
17:40 Savage Taurus hehe
17:41 Beth Ghostraven shoot, I didn't realize this story was by Connie Willis
17:41 Beth Ghostraven I like her work
17:41 Wordsmith Jarvinen Notecard in the large golden vase.
17:41 Savage Taurus was a very good story
17:41 Valibrarian Gregg Somehow the loss of buildings in the war reminded me of the loss we feel when sims or buildings are taken down in virtual worlds, too. Have you ever felt a sense of loss here?
17:41 Phrynne often
17:41 Panny (panny.bakerly) nods
17:41 Savage Taurus the stories picked for this group are always good, I've noticed
17:41 Wordsmith Jarvinen Way too often.
17:41 Beth Ghostraven yes, ditto
17:41 Valibrarian Gregg Amazing that we are emotionally connected in virtual worlds- to the places and people---- in the same way as the physical world.
17:41 Savage Taurus yes I have felt that loss here
17:42 Danica (missnikaru) I agree
17:42 Valibrarian Gregg and a great story like this produces the same emotion.
17:43 Valibrarian Gregg So-- I sort of see virtual worlds as "entering meaningful metaphors"-- and they are real just like stories are real
17:43 Wordsmith Jarvinen It does. I quite literally felt the loss at the end, even understanding that it's partly just the perspective of time traveling.
17:43 Savage Taurus loss is an inevitable part of life as we age
17:44 Valibrarian Gregg yes Wordsmith- maybe that is why it reminded me of SL- He KNEW he was not in his own reality.....but it was still real.
17:44 Phrynne I just checked -- Fire Watch won both the Hugo and the Nebula awards for science fiction writing.
17:44 Wordsmith Jarvinen But the same has held true before for RL workshops where one bonds with other participants over a week.
17:44 Savage Taurus ahh
17:44 Savage Taurus glad to hear it won awards
17:44 Wordsmith Jarvinen one bonds. And then scatters to the four directions.
17:44 Valibrarian Gregg Wonderful Phryne- well deserved awards
17:44 Phrynne those are the two biggest for the genre.
17:45 Valibrarian Gregg Any thought on why she included this: Nov-Dec: Lots of description of bad dreams. ?
17:45 Wordsmith Jarvinen Connie Willis was a Phrynne suggestion to me.
17:45 Savage Taurus heh maybe a note to herself that she never got back around to flesh out :P
17:46 Valibrarian Gregg TY Phrynne!! keep them coming!
17:46 Savage Taurus and was just included in the story
17:46 Wordsmith Jarvinen I think just the rising stress and not getting good memory retrieval.
17:46 Valibrarian Gregg The bad dreams enhanced the sense of "mixed reality" and "mixed up time"
17:47 Savage Taurus yes, that was well done
17:47 Valibrarian Gregg Have any of you ever dreamed about a virtual world?
17:47 Savage Taurus sometimes you didnt know if what he was perceiving was real
17:47 Valibrarian Gregg getting memories mixed?
17:47 Beth Ghostraven not that I know of, although I wouldn't be surprised
17:47 Savage Taurus all the time
17:47 Phrynne Dreams happen outside of time and place anyway.
17:47 Beth Ghostraven there's lots of bleedover in conscious life
17:48 Wordsmith Jarvinen I do at times. The people and interactions are real. The mirror neuron activation is real.
17:48 Valibrarian Gregg yes so true- the writing was sort of dream like anyway
17:48 Valibrarian Gregg Exactly Wordsmith-- reality is in the mind
17:49 Savage Taurus it makes you wonder if he really was back in time or if it was just a simulation
17:49 Valibrarian Gregg Yet- I like the separation of my head and the screen (better than a VR headset)--- Let's me appreciate physical space and virtual space as two separate- yet real spaces.
17:49 Savage Taurus I thought it odd that Enola looked so much like Kivrin
17:50 Wordsmith Jarvinen At least in his perception.
17:50 Valibrarian Gregg ooooh interesting Savage- I had not thought much about that similarity- and maybe what she meant by it
17:50 Savage Taurus he even mentioned that he wondered if it was a simulation with androids
17:50 Wordsmith Jarvinen But that may have been done to promote the sense of connection he'd feel.
17:51 Valibrarian Gregg Lots of interesting details to discover and contemplate!
17:51 Savage Taurus "I think I wanted to believe that was what they had done, Enola and Langby only hired actors, the cat a clever android with its clockwork innards taken out for the final effect"
17:51 Wordsmith Jarvinen There have been real questions of "Is our universe a simulation and could we detect it if it is?"
17:52 Phrynne if it were, a simulation of what?
17:52 Beth Ghostraven yes, and "is life really just a dream?"
17:52 Wordsmith Jarvinen And, of course, we wouldn't be able to tell if we get shut down at night. Or restarted from a checkpoint.
17:53 Savage Taurus there's a physicist who thinks he has found something similar to computer code at the quantum level of reality
17:53 Valibrarian Gregg haha- Wasn't that a Twilight Zone episode? or something similar
17:54 Wordsmith Jarvinen A simulation of a universe like ours occurring in an "upper universe".
17:55 Savage Taurus we are but a projection on the wall of a 10 dimensional universe...a shadow play for the gods
17:55 Valibrarian Gregg The universe is mind bending in its vastness- so our ideas of a super "code" or other simulations are not really any crazier than black holes!
17:55 Beth Ghostraven so we are actually avatars in RL?
17:55 Phrynne we could be
17:56 Beth Ghostraven @.@
17:56 Phrynne but for whom remains to be seen
17:56 Savage Taurus I dance for Loki ;)
17:57 Valibrarian Gregg This has been a really cool discussion
17:57 Wordsmith Jarvinen We covered everything I'd jotted down. Anything else?
17:57 Panny (panny.bakerly) I still wish I had my avatars clothing in RL
17:57 Valibrarian Gregg and I can't wait to find out what we are reading next month.
17:57 Beth Ghostraven and my avatar's jewelry, Panny!
17:57 Panny (panny.bakerly) lol
17:57 Beth Ghostraven and hair! lol
17:57 Danica (missnikaru) Same Panny. I wish I had my fairy.
17:58 Panny (panny.bakerly) ㋡
17:58 Valibrarian Gregg I think SCI-FI stories are perfect for virtual world campfire discussions :)
17:58 Valibrarian Gregg I wish I had a book hat!
17:58 Savage Taurus the stories have so far been very good
17:58 Valibrarian Gregg yes! and ty Wordsmith for leading the discussion
17:58 Wordsmith Jarvinen Thanks, Savage.
17:58 Beth Ghostraven gets distracted and takes a bite out of Savage's hat
17:58 Panny (panny.bakerly) I'm sorry I arrived late.
17:59 Savage Taurus lol
17:59 Valibrarian Gregg lol (just camera-ing in on Savage's hat)
17:59 Beth Ghostraven the Tinies were discussing a sci-fi story, too, incidentally
17:59 Wordsmith Jarvinen I'm going to post the transcript up in a directory on the Oxbridge website, tell Val, and she can send out a notice.
17:59 Valibrarian Gregg We will send a notecard out to tell you the story for next month
18:00 Valibrarian Gregg and it will also be on our calendar https://communityvirtuallibrary.org/ SEE events
18:00 Beth Ghostraven thank you, Word!
18:00 Valibrarian Gregg Next time is OCT 11th THURS at 5pm- right Wordsmith- back to the 2nd thurs of the month?
18:00 Wordsmith Jarvinen And I've got the chat transcripts back to the organizational meeting in April
18:01 Wordsmith Jarvinen Back to the 2nd Thursdays.
18:01 Valibrarian Gregg Beth- tell the tinies they can join us- cross community - if desired :)
18:01 Beth Ghostraven I will!
18:01 Wordsmith Jarvinen Maybe we can provide waffles.
18:01 Beth Ghostraven they're meeting twice a month on Thursdays, so maybe they can do two other Thursdays
18:01 Savage Taurus hehe
18:01 Beth Ghostraven I can provide waffles!
18:01 Beth Ghostraven an real maple syrup!
18:01 Valibrarian Gregg hahahah
18:01 Wordsmith Jarvinen There we go.
18:01 Panny (panny.bakerly) ...Nutella...
18:02 Valibrarian Gregg Watch for the notecard about our next story and location!!!
18:02 Savage Taurus this was a lot of fun
18:02 Wordsmith Jarvinen I'm going have to run. I've got a new inventory class starting tonight (first run) at 7pm
18:02 Valibrarian Gregg Great to be with you all tonight!
18:02 Valibrarian Gregg take care
18:03 Panny (panny.bakerly) Have a lovely evening.
18:03 Danica (missnikaru) Thank you so much!
18:03 Savage Taurus take care everyone
18:03 Valibrarian Gregg bye for now
18:03 Phrynne bye
18:03 Panny (panny.bakerly) Night.
18:03 Wordsmith Jarvinen Til Again (bows)